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Unread 05-22-2009, 12:10 AM   #16
Nollie
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Running stock the car pushed like a pig (96 C4S). Threw suspension work on (Motons, EVO uprights, TRG sways, RS strut bar, monoballs, and camber plates) and the handles like a well balanced dream. First thing to upgrade on the C4S is the suspension imho. But I've thought about moving over to 2WD with Viper bob's conversion kit more than once... hopefully I'll get to take out a 2WD version and see if I can tell a difference.
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Unread 05-22-2009, 04:15 AM   #17
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Running stock the car pushed like a pig (96 C4S). Threw suspension work on (Motons, EVO uprights, TRG sways, RS strut bar, monoballs, and camber plates) and the handles like a well balanced dream. First thing to upgrade on the C4S is the suspension imho. But I've thought about moving over to 2WD with Viper bob's conversion kit more than once... hopefully I'll get to take out a 2WD version and see if I can tell a difference.
If you can get a chance to do a back to back run with both, it would be great if you would post a write-up. Somebody needs to do a methodical kind of comparison.

My suspension and alignment guy argues that one can dial out (or in) anything with the proper tuning. And I tend to concur. And I also think with the proper suspension work, the C4S might even have some advantages(?) weight aside.
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Unread 06-01-2009, 12:40 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by lulz View Post
Ah! Hmmm...but I've always heard the TT handled superbly.(pretty neutral for a rear engined car) So I'm gonna surmise that as Canyon56 stated that it's all about the suspension setup in the 993TT that makes it work.
lulz

well, i guess it depends on who you're hearing it from and how educated / demanding they are.

you wrote, "So I'm gonna surmise that as Canyon56 stated that it's all about the suspension setup in the 993TT that makes it work."

substitute any car for 993TT and you'll be more correct IMO.

i have a 96 C4S.
in stock form it understeeeeeeeeeeeered quite a bit, really .

i was really hot on dumping the AWD and enjoying the RWD concept.
First I installed Pss10's / lowered the ride height to near RS spec / installed Euro TT anti-sways / and had a pretty aggressive alignment done.

The car's handling was transformed to make me a happy boy.
I'll still try the RWDectomey, it's just not the burning requirement it was 6 months ago.

So, i guess i'm saying that the 993 TT setup while "good" is not inherently "right". It all depends on your frame of reference.

cheers

Craig
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Unread 06-01-2009, 04:04 PM   #19
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well, i guess it depends on who you're hearing it from and how educated / demanding they are.

you wrote, "So I'm gonna surmise that as Canyon56 stated that it's all about the suspension setup in the 993TT that makes it work."

substitute any car for 993TT and you'll be more correct IMO.

i have a 96 C4S.
in stock form it understeeeeeeeeeeeered quite a bit, really .

i was really hot on dumping the AWD and enjoying the RWD concept.
First I installed Pss10's / lowered the ride height to near RS spec / installed Euro TT anti-sways / and had a pretty aggressive alignment done.

The car's handling was transformed to make me a happy boy.
I'll still try the RWDectomey, it's just not the burning requirement it was 6 months ago.

So, i guess i'm saying that the 993 TT setup while "good" is not inherently "right". It all depends on your frame of reference.

cheers

Craig
Yeah, I think he misunderstood what we are trying to say.

I still think about RWDectomy, too. But (and as with all stock cars, including the 993TT of course), once you start the suspension tuning the vehicle can get reborn.

Another thing we have to bear in mind, is that suspension tuning is also somewhat subjective. How it performs depends on the person's expectation and driving style/skill.
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Unread 09-08-2009, 08:34 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by cgfen View Post
well, i guess it depends on who you're hearing it from and how educated / demanding they are.

you wrote, "So I'm gonna surmise that as Canyon56 stated that it's all about the suspension setup in the 993TT that makes it work."

substitute any car for 993TT and you'll be more correct IMO.

i have a 96 C4S.
in stock form it understeeeeeeeeeeeered quite a bit, really .

i was really hot on dumping the AWD and enjoying the RWD concept.
First I installed Pss10's / lowered the ride height to near RS spec / installed Euro TT anti-sways / and had a pretty aggressive alignment done.

The car's handling was transformed to make me a happy boy.
I'll still try the RWDectomey, it's just not the burning requirement it was 6 months ago.

So, i guess i'm saying that the 993 TT setup while "good" is not inherently "right". It all depends on your frame of reference.

cheers

Craig
short update

Well i did the AWDectomy and transformed a quite well balanced, neutral handling car that i felt comfortable with, into an oversteering monster.
I've done two AX since the swap and have had multiple oversteer induced spins.
no changes other than AWDectomy.

This might be the way a "real" 911 handles, but now i'm driving up a steep learning curve............... again. Only way i can get any semblance of understeer right now is to set the front coilovers to 10 and the rears to very soft, 1 - 3.
I'll fiddle a bit with tire pressures and anti-sways and let you know what i discover.

cheers

Craig
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Unread 09-17-2009, 01:21 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by cgfen View Post
short update

Well i did the AWDectomy and transformed a quite well balanced, neutral handling car that i felt comfortable with, into an oversteering monster.
I've done two AX since the swap and have had multiple oversteer induced spins.
no changes other than AWDectomy.

This might be the way a "real" 911 handles, but now i'm driving up a steep learning curve............... again. Only way i can get any semblance of understeer right now is to set the front coilovers to 10 and the rears to very soft, 1 - 3.
I'll fiddle a bit with tire pressures and anti-sways and let you know what i discover.

cheers

Craig
Hmm.... that's interesting. I have a C2S with PSS10s and M030 sways, and I have the fronts set to 8 and the rears to 10 for DEs. I know AX is a bit different, but I'm surprised to hear that your car oversteers that much (I don't think the 1mm thicker TT rear sway bar would make that big of a difference). I presume that you are getting oversteer when you turn-in. What's your driving style? Brake late? Trail-brake?
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Unread 10-01-2009, 06:51 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by mike993c2s View Post
Hmm.... that's interesting. I have a C2S with PSS10s and M030 sways, and I have the fronts set to 8 and the rears to 10 for DEs. I know AX is a bit different, but I'm surprised to hear that your car oversteers that much (I don't think the 1mm thicker TT rear sway bar would make that big of a difference). I presume that you are getting oversteer when you turn-in. What's your driving style? Brake late? Trail-brake?
hmmmmmmmmm driving style = learning.
I think the biggest issue = i was able to get away with lifting off with no / minimal resulting oversteer when it was AWD.
Now i experience "typical" lift off oversteer.

It's probably mainly a learning thing.

first AX since AWDectomy is tomorrow.
I swapped out my new Euro TT rear ARB (21mm) for my stock ARB (17mm) and did some parking lot testing.
Rear grip seems better, but i'll know more in a few days.

cheers

Craig
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Unread 10-05-2009, 04:06 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by cgfen View Post
hmmmmmmmmm driving style = learning.
I think the biggest issue = i was able to get away with lifting off with no / minimal resulting oversteer when it was AWD.
Now i experience "typical" lift off oversteer.

It's probably mainly a learning thing.

first AX since AWDectomy is tomorrow.
I swapped out my new Euro TT rear ARB (21mm) for my stock ARB (17mm) and did some parking lot testing.
Rear grip seems better, but i'll know more in a few days.

cheers

Craig
still learning, but swapping back to the 17mm ARB dramatically improved rear tire grip for AX.
Car actually pushes a bit again.
still have to fiddle with suspension a bit, but getting closer.

cheers

Craig
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Unread 10-08-2009, 10:39 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by cgfen View Post
still learning, but swapping back to the 17mm ARB dramatically improved rear tire grip for AX.
Car actually pushes a bit again.
still have to fiddle with suspension a bit, but getting closer.

cheers

Craig
I haven't driven a 4S before, so I don't know how it feels on corner entry. As for the 2WD, I know the rear always feels like it wants to come around when you turn in. Until you're a master at car control (which I'm not), the approach I've taken (advice from instructors with 911's) is slow in, fast out. Brake a little more in a straight line, then back on the gas once the car has started turning in. This stabilizes the rear end a lot, and helps inspire more confidence. This helped me a lot as I'm still learning how to drive a rear-engined car.....
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Unread 10-14-2009, 06:04 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by mike993c2s View Post
I haven't driven a 4S before, so I don't know how it feels on corner entry. As for the 2WD, I know the rear always feels like it wants to come around when you turn in. Until you're a master at car control (which I'm not), the approach I've taken (advice from instructors with 911's) is slow in, fast out. Brake a little more in a straight line, then back on the gas once the car has started turning in. This stabilizes the rear end a lot, and helps inspire more confidence. This helped me a lot as I'm still learning how to drive a rear-engined car.....
agreed.
my car was AWD, now RWD only

cheers

Craig
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Unread 10-14-2009, 07:50 PM   #26
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AWD=fast in and fast out
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Unread 10-15-2009, 12:46 PM   #27
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AWD=fast in and fast out
Supercharger = Superfastout!
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