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Unread 07-18-2012, 09:22 AM   #196
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I think the custom fly is the way to go for these errors and dry sump. With wet sump, the front sync trigger wheel worked with a bit of fiddling.
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Unread 08-03-2012, 06:44 PM   #197
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The block was stripped bored, recoated using Nikasil,then honed to fit 105mm Wossners. Most boosted Porsche cylinders are Nikasil coated. John also uses Millenium's Nikasil coating for his motors.
OOPS! I meant NiCom NOT Nikasil. The block was always NiCom.
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Unread 08-03-2012, 06:53 PM   #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rluciano View Post
George,

I am considering going to the 968 bell housing, torque tube, etc. between my 968 block and 968 tranny. When you say 911 TT do you mean 964, 993, 996 or ???

Thanks.
Sorry, I'm not on here much. We used a 996 TT pressure plate and had Clutchmasters re-fulcrum for higher clamping force. The disc was made by RSBarn for this application. Smooth engagement, no chatter, and holds very well. It's nice to be able to use modern factory parts when you can.
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Unread 08-04-2012, 12:49 AM   #199
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Sounds a nice solution George. What else is news with the car?
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Unread 08-06-2012, 02:28 PM   #200
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We should be firing it up tomorrow.

George
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Unread 08-06-2012, 03:30 PM   #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George D View Post
We should be firing it up tomorrow.

George
Are you still working with Garrity or is someone else on point now?
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Unread 08-06-2012, 03:57 PM   #202
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The issue we had with the scoring was because JE sent pistons with the wrong rings for a NiCom plated bore. Garrity ordered many sets, most for 911 applications, and they all had the wrong rings. He is trying to settle with them, and his attorney is involved. There was nothing wrong with his build, just JE f****** up the order, and not coming clean with their error.

The motor may have lasted many thousands of miles, but when Garrity scoped the cylinders and saw scoring, he pulled the head and decided to guarantee his work using Wossner.

Long process, but I'm glad he was honest with me.

George
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Unread 03-05-2013, 06:32 PM   #203
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Long time since I've posted. Here is a copy of a recent dyno chart. We still have some additional tuning to do, but the motor is running well.

The 430WHP chart is at 16psi and the 540WHP chart is at 19psi. The dip at 3K is being tuned out, and there is more to be had. Zero knock counts and there was no correction input. The dyno is at aout 4,500 feet.

The mustang chart is also uncorrected and shows about a 12% difference between the two. The mustang and dynojet are housed in the same shop.


Comments from Dave who was tuning the car and was present at these particular dyno runs. I was not there.

Quote from Dave:

Currently it appears that everything is holding together very well even at these performance levels. On the Mustang dyno we had to lower tire pressures and strap it down very tightly as it was just spinning when it came on boost. The dynojet has a crosscut pattern on the drum that hooks up really well but is a bit hard on tires. You now have a good pair of scuffed rear tires. Yes, even at this altitude it will fry the tires on the dyno. All these dyno runs have corresponding data logs on the Electromotive software showing everything.

I have not been doing the majority of tuning or work on the car due to some ongoing health problems. I have been involved with the high end boost tuning and this engine is strong and appears almost bullet proof. It is showing 0 knocks and really is a conservative tune at both the low boost and high boost settings. Coolant and oil temps are very nice, egt temps are even cooler than we anticipated. The engine oil temps have gotten up to the point where it opens up the thermostat then never higher. (around 230ish.) The thermostatic fan on the right oil cooler has never even turned on.

I hope you can see the differences on how the boost came on from slightly different loading. If we really loaded up the dyno the turbo would look like it came on very early which I believe is what Lindsey did with their chart. You can also see from their chart that 458rwhp was all that turbo had to give. Dyno curves are fun to look at but without actually comparing the different vehicles on the same dyno with the same settings you really have nothing to compare. You can move the curve around to make it look how you would like pretty easily.

Dave Lomas

Motorsport Inc.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf George Dyno Chart.pdf (36.3 KB, 19 views)
File Type: pdf George Mustang Dyno Chart.pdf (50.7 KB, 13 views)
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Unread 03-06-2013, 03:17 AM   #204
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George -- congrats on getting the car back on the rollers! Looks like it will be a beast. Very hopeful your persistance pays off this time and you can drive it for years to come! Those comments about manipulating dynos are spot on by the way, though you might want to check your numbers. Hard to believe it could go from 430 to 540 by turning up the boost from 16 to 19psi? The Mustang dyno stats at the bottom list a peak boost of 28psi, which would better explain the extra 110hp but would make me nervous for your brand new motor...
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Unread 03-06-2013, 03:31 PM   #205
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Tom, I talked with Dave Lomas about this last night. I received incorrect information and Dave sent me more data. The high boost run was at 24psi, not 19. The head is running out of flow capacity at these high HP levels. I'm keeping things around 16.7 for pump gas. 430whp and similar tq. The TEC data logs showed max boost at 24.1 PSI. I won't be using C16 very often, and Dave told me the wheelspin at 24psi is too much and grippier tires will probably break something.

Update and quote from Dave at Motorsports:
The blue traces are at 16.8psi on pump gas. Disregard the dip at 3krpm, the tuner had a problem with the tip in that will be resolved. The numbers were 425rwhp and 408 rwtq. This is the wastegate setting and the low boost setting on the controller will go up to almost 20psi which is what we will be finish tuning soon. We should be able to set it up so that no matter where you set the controller on pump gas you cannot damage it.



The red traces are at 24.1psi on Q16 race gas. I anticipated 540rwhp but we only got 539.9rwhp. The torque was 548# at the wheels. This was 268kpa and the fuel shutoff is at 273kpa for safety. The turbo has more to give but this is the way we configured it with the wastegate springs and controller. Much higher than this might lift the head. As it is set up currently you cannot turn it up high enough to damage it on race gas.

The Ziptie Dynowerks (18psi compare) sheet is from a Mustang dyno. This is the dyno that consistently reads 12% lower in horsepower than the Mustang dyno. The green trace is the boost level and the black trace is the a/f. This is an all-wheel dyno and has a variable load control. It is vehicle weight based. We weighed your car at 3185#, very light for the kind of power we are putting down.



The short dashed red/blue run is at 16.8psi. This was 380rwhp and almost 370rwtq. This is the run the boost and A/F are from.



The long dashed red/blue run is also at 16.8psi but with slightly heavier loading. The harder you load it, the sooner the turbo comes on. The peaks were the same as the prior run.



The solid red/blue run was the same heavier loading at 18psi. This was 400rwhp and 393rwtq. This would be almost 450rwhp and 445rwtq on the Dynojet @ 18psi.



The last one titled 484/494 is also on the Mustang dyno on race gas at 24.1psi. It also shows the boost and A/F. If you put it side by side with the Dynojet race gas dyno you will see that the 12% horsepower and 13% torque correction are very close.
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Unread 03-07-2013, 07:22 PM   #206
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Very nice George,

If you're saying this turbo you're running now can produce more HP but because you're limited to the flow of the head.. could you substitute your turbo for a smaller one and see boost sooner and achieve very similar peak power?
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Unread 03-08-2013, 08:08 PM   #207
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Very nice George,

If you're saying this turbo you're running now can produce more HP but because you're limited to the flow of the head.. could you substitute your turbo for a smaller one and see boost sooner and achieve very similar peak power?
Well, yes, but you would probably need more boost to get the same peak numbers. Also, Garrity's partner, Dave, told me he could create a dyno by loading the drum and show max tq by 3500 if I wanted to see that chart. I haven't driven the car during this tuning work, but Dave tells me as soon as the tach hits 3K, you are getting ready to shift in the first three gears. If you are wot, you are shifting into the next gear from 6500rpm to 4500rpm waiting for the next 6500rpm shift. Traction is a big issue running c16 with the race gas tune, and Dave stated with true race tires, the drivetrain is the weak link and something is going to break.

I'll just wait till I get the car in my hands and make decisions locally with the little things like turbo changes, head work, etc. I'm going to be smitten with a 951 that has reliability hitting TRUE 430hp and TQ at the wheels using shitty 91 fuel.

Dave also has a tune wired into a switch in my locking glove box. Think of a valet mode. This switch shuts off all boost, and the car will be like a NA 968. He told me it runs like a slightly modded 968 with the boost off. Dyno's are great tuning tools, but not really meant to demonstrate anything other than potential power made, and ability to remove dips because of timing/fuel, etc. I do know they show accurate wheel tq, then do the math to get hp. The curves can be manipulated, and until I actually drive the car, I'm trusting the folks building this for me.

They have a storm in SLC now, and my final tuning will not be completed till the snow clears. My car won't move forward with snow. The tires grip from heat, and are worthless and dangerous in slick conditions.

I suspended my Hagarty insurance for 90K during this work. I'd be pissed if Motorsport wrecked my car. I should call Hagarty and pay the premium. It's only $1190 per year to cover my car for the above number. I'll still keep my Progressive business insurance in addition to Hagarty.

Know, one of my favorite 951's had 345tq and 330whp about 12 years ago. That car was nuts and easy to drive. Only had a K27/6 with 18psi. Most friends that didn't know what they were in thought it has a modded V8.

You didn't get arrested for have fun back then, and I don't recall losing to anyone from a roll.

George
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Unread 03-09-2013, 01:53 AM   #208
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If he puts more load on the dyno that would be similar to having it in 5th gear where there's so much load on the engine?

How would you turn the boost of? wouldn't it be set to wastegate spring pressure?

Oh just pay the premium, man you never know what will happen. Just lastnight my balance shaft belt slipped as it got to loose and i did bring tools, but not the right ones! i had to make a phone call and 1 hour and 30 min later my dad comes with a ute (like a pick up but smaller sort of) full of my tools and a huge trolly jack to fix it. drove home after it no issue, just that shitty belt whine because it was tighter. Lucky nothing bad happend.

you told me about that one, when i was choosing my turbo i was going for a k27/6 and you said it was one of your best choices. I gotta admit my k26/6 was pretty dam good on a roll. it was like a n/a as how quick the turbo would spool but the loss on top end. I guess that's why we mod, because top end..
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