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Unread 05-02-2010, 01:18 PM   #31
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Default re: Quote me in detail for the Atom

Quote:
Originally Posted by evil 944t View Post
Vic,

None of the changes you heard about took place and they may never take place. Right now, it is only a sales tactic to make a Vipec sound better than a Link. As of right now, you can still buy an Extreme with all the same functions as a Vipec. Link will make two models, one for Vipec and one for Link. They will still look similar and IF Link decides to make changes, they will have two units BUT both will be similar enough were there is no real difference.

For our purposes(944 turbo world) non of it really makes any difference to us. Especially when you can use the lowest model Link, The Atom, and its plug and play complete for $2400. It doesn't have all the bells and whistles but half or more of the people here won't use them, even if they had them.

Dave,
Can you post a itemized detailed quote for the Atom? Everything you think I will need for the 951?

Thinking of installing on car #2 and I want to post it on rennlist to educate the masses on a viable moderate costing alternative to being nickel and dimed
to death..

-BB
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Unread 05-02-2010, 04:26 PM   #32
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While my Vitesse MAF/piggyback has worked perfect for years, just as Vitesse was an improvement over anything available then, an affordable standalone is the next evoloution and a viable option for our cars.

I would imagine John is working on new products also, competition is always good for price and improved products.
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Unread 05-02-2010, 05:39 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evil 944t View Post
For our purposes(944 turbo world) non of it really makes any difference to us. Especially when you can use the lowest model Link, The Atom, and its plug and play complete for $2400. It doesn't have all the bells and whistles but half or more of the people here won't use them, even if they had them.
While the ATOM looks like a great intoductory level ECU, there are some important factors that the 951 crowd must consider when you look at the number of inputs & outputs it has.

The ATOM has 2 Analog Volt inputs, so that means that TPS (required) and another channel is available. I think most would use a wideband input for the remaining channel.

The ATOM has 2 Digital inputs, so wiring Vehicle Speed would be useful for gear based boost or a multiple boost switch for toggling between a low and hight boost maps, or on board logging for the track guys who don't want their laptops flying all over the passenger compartment when they want to log what their car is doing. A/C request for triggering a higher idle speed for smoother idle characteristics. Most importantly, (in my opinion) KNOCK control.

The ATOM has 4 auxiliary outputs so, if you want to retain your Idle Control Valve, 2 channels are used. You need to assign a fuel pump activate channel to turn the pump on, so only one channel left. Boost control solenoid would be the smartest option left.

So while being a less expensive standalone option, there are factors (even important to the 951 crowd) that must be addressed if the ATOM suites your budget.

Considering all the wonderful features that engine management systems offer, how would you rate the importance of closed loop knock control so that your engine is protected all the time? For the ATOM, a knock control box is going to require and AUX and DIGITAL channel, so an option like the Boost solenoid would be eliminated cause you're going to need the ICV and Fuel Pump channels. You could always eliminate the ICV, but for guys looking for a street option should consider things like cold start / hot start characteristics and A/C on & off operation (also a digital input).

My point here is that "most" 951 guys looking for a bare bones, cost effective system are still looking to tune via wideband feedback, they want boost control, they want a superior EMS over the stock system. I think anyone interested in a standalone recognizes the function and importance of the KLR, so moving to an engine management upgrade like this without any knock control provisions would (to me) be counter productive. So, bundling a knock controller with an ATOM ecu will result in having to give up on some other key options due to the limited number of input / output channels.

More info needs to be shared about what it takes to run all the "bell & whistles" and what options are most useful for maximizing the end users success in tuning their car.
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Unread 05-02-2010, 08:35 PM   #34
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First off, to compare the Atom to anything else, you have to know the product, understand the product and be able to set it up properly rather than have someone else do the work for you. I'm sure Bob Boyer could figure it out but if not, it is really pretty simple. If you want more features, get a Link Storm or Extreme.

My statement is simple. If you want a cheap basic standalone, one could be had for $2400 complete. If you want closed loop knock control, gear based boost, etc.. then the Atom may not be for you.

As far as inputs and outputs, you are limited but, You can use other extra channels/drivers to compensate for the missing inputs/outputs of the Atom.

With the Atom, you can have..
1. 2 maps via a dash mounted switch.
2. TPS and Wideband
3. Boost controller
4. Idle control
5. Tach
6. shift light
7. a/c control
8. factory S&R sensors
9. Then you can use all spare ignition and injector drives as switches to turn, whatever you want.

Knock control (if desired) can be added via a Link Knock Block(not included).

The system runs wasted spark and comes with a complete plug and play harness, coil pack, custom plug wires. Injectors are not included but can be had for +/-$250.

BB, Thats just off the top of my head. I will write up something more complete if you would like.

Bottom line, if you can deal with a bare bones ems, then the Atom is great. If you want all these other options then the Storm or Extreme are for you. Is the Atom the best low $$ ecu for us? Maybe, it depends on your needs. I merely suggested that it can be used perfectly fine. Again, you do NOT have all the bells and whistles but it will work on a street car just fine.

Regarding knock control, There are a lot of EMS systems(Motec and others) out there that don't run knock control(and still don't on the lower end units). If you know how to tune, it is not an issue. If you are ignorant to your engine/tune or don't know how to tune or want electronics around to take up for your lack of ability to tune, there are other options. One thing to consider, if you are in the 3 choices I gave you, maybe a stand alone is not for you or you need to step up to a more robust system. No offense, just the facts.
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Unread 05-02-2010, 10:34 PM   #35
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Would a Guru Racing chip from Danno run a 951 the same as a standalone? What are the pros and cons of a guru racing chip versus, say, a Vipec?
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Unread 05-03-2010, 12:03 AM   #36
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Dave,

Thanks I posted your remarks on rennlist... purpose is to get more people talking about standalone systems so more folks can make an informed decision when it comes to plunking down there hard earned money.


-BB
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Unread 05-03-2010, 01:26 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evil 944t View Post
First off, to compare the Atom to anything else, you have to know the product, understand the product and be able to set it up properly rather than have someone else do the work for you. I'm sure Bob Boyer could figure it out but if not, it is really pretty simple. If you want more features, get a Link Storm or Extreme.

My statement is simple. If you want a cheap basic standalone, one could be had for $2400 complete. If you want closed loop knock control, gear based boost, etc.. then the Atom may not be for you.

As far as inputs and outputs, you are limited but, You can use other extra channels/drivers to compensate for the missing inputs/outputs of the Atom.

With the Atom, you can have..
1. 2 maps via a dash mounted switch.
2. TPS and Wideband
3. Boost controller
4. Idle control
5. Tach
6. shift light
7. a/c control
8. factory S&R sensors
9. Then you can use all spare ignition and injector drives as switches to turn, whatever you want.
Maybe you are seeing something I am not, but the Link site lists the G4 ATOM SPECS here. All the features you've listed are possible at the same time IF the ECU has 8 Auxiliary channels like the Storm, but the description lists it having 4. Also, with only one connector on the Atom, I don't see there being any available spare injection or ignition drives unless you are planning on running less than 4 cylinders. My prior comments revolve around these details.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evil 944t View Post
Knock control (if desired) can be added via a Link Knock Block(not included).

The system runs wasted spark and comes with a complete plug and play harness, coil pack, custom plug wires. Injectors are not included but can be had for +/-$250.

BB, Thats just off the top of my head. I will write up something more complete if you would like.

Bottom line, if you can deal with a bare bones ems, then the Atom is great. If you want all these other options then the Storm or Extreme are for you. Is the Atom the best low $$ ecu for us? Maybe, it depends on your needs. I merely suggested that it can be used perfectly fine. Again, you do NOT have all the bells and whistles but it will work on a street car just fine.

Regarding knock control, There are a lot of EMS systems(Motec and others) out there that don't run knock control(and still don't on the lower end units). If you know how to tune, it is not an issue. If you are ignorant to your engine/tune or don't know how to tune or want electronics around to take up for your lack of ability to tune, there are other options. One thing to consider, if you are in the 3 choices I gave you, maybe a stand alone is not for you or you need to step up to a more robust system. No offense, just the facts.
Of course you can run your car without a knock controller. Is knowing how to tune a standalone the make or break as to whether a knock controller should be used? Does Link sell their Knock Block for the purpose of assisting novice or inexperienced users so that they don't blow up their engines?

Take a look at the Knock Block Intruction Manual on page 4 of the Intro - "This will allow the tuner to safely optimise ignition timing and mixtures when tuning an engine"

My intention in promoting the use of a knock controller is to help people recognize that moving to a standalone doesn't mean that you are obligated to using an experienced dyno operator/tuner for extracting the most out of your car. Without the knock controller, the end user is forced to rely on a timing map developed by the dyno operator. On top of that, knock provisions have to built into the timing map to ensure a safety margin which ultimately means that power is being left on the table. Knock controllers are allowing standalone users the ability to OPTIMIZE their timing maps in real world conditions. So, want to run race gas or E85? With knock correction and wideband feedback adjust for it yourself. How many dyno sessions would it take and what would be the cost for a dyno tuner to build OPTIMIZED fuel and timing tables for the different fuels? The up front cost of a knock controller would represent a savings when compared to tuning without one and the notion that using one is a band-aid approach to get around the tuner or user's lack of ability to tune is simply wrong. More importantly, the end user learns how to tune themselves eliminating a huge portion of the dependancy factor that comes along with the move to a standalone.

I'm sure a large portion of 951 crowd interested in squeezing more out of their cars like the idea of a standalone system, but are just too scared about inheriting the tuning potential of blowing up their engine. Over the years, I've seen all sorts of tactics used to herd people into thinking that standalone systems are only for a select few that are very well versed in maintaining and/or tuning their cars. With threads like this, the 951 community can maybe shift its outlook towards standalone systems and grow like other marques do.

BTW, no offence taken.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DDP
Would a Guru Racing chip from Danno run a 951 the same as a standalone? What are the pros and cons of a guru racing chip versus, say, a Vipec?
Nice.
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Unread 05-03-2010, 04:29 AM   #38
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Quote:
Lots of Audi guys (more across the pond) use VEMS. Don't know much about it personally
Vems is more or less similar to Megasquirt with better processor. You tune it with Megatune.
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Unread 05-03-2010, 10:01 AM   #39
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Vic,

Again, I think you are making valid points but are missing the picture. Here is the original question. Will the Atom work and be a good low cost Stand alone? The answer is yes. Does it do everything I said? yes. Does it have all the bells and whistles? no.

I feel the other options like Knock control, dual fuel, etc.. (as you pointed out) are great but not necessary. You can talk it up all you want(and so would I if I wanted to make some sales) But the reality is, you don't need it. If you are concerned, don't run your engine to its limits. IMHO, anyone reading this, does not need to extract the max HP out of their engine.

At the end of the day, I'm not pushing EMS systems on anyone. I'm hoping people understand tuning and if they do, I will be happy to discuss which system will do what they want to do. Does Link make it easy to tune, you bet. Auto tune and Knock detection is awesome. I can't be anymore happy than I am now. These latest products have advanced user friendlyness(that a word?) and can have an average person understanding how to tune in no time flat.
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Unread 05-03-2010, 02:04 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evil 944t View Post
Vic,

Again, I think you are making valid points but are missing the picture. Here is the original question. Will the Atom work and be a good low cost Stand alone? The answer is yes. Does it do everything I said? yes. Does it have all the bells and whistles? no.

I feel the other options like Knock control, dual fuel, etc.. (as you pointed out) are great but not necessary. You can talk it up all you want(and so would I if I wanted to make some sales) But the reality is, you don't need it. If you are concerned, don't run your engine to its limits. IMHO, anyone reading this, does not need to extract the max HP out of their engine.

At the end of the day, I'm not pushing EMS systems on anyone. I'm hoping people understand tuning and if they do, I will be happy to discuss which system will do what they want to do. Does Link make it easy to tune, you bet. Auto tune and Knock detection is awesome. I can't be anymore happy than I am now. These latest products have advanced user friendlyness(that a word?) and can have an average person understanding how to tune in no time flat.
Dave,

I couldn't agree more that the Atom is an awesome option for the 951 community. My comments on the Atom acknowledge that it will do everything you claim it will do, but key point being that it won't do all of the mentioned features at the same time.

I think it's really important that the breakdown of the input & output channels is understood cause it'll help guys recognize which ECU they need for the options they want.

If I come across as pushing my Vi-PEC EMS kit, it's only because I'm extremely enthusiastic, confident and satisfied about how it performs. So, for guys tired of the same old sh!t, I'm totally stoked about spreading some great info on a killer product for the 951 community.
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Unread 05-03-2010, 08:05 PM   #41
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I am personally very intersted in that Vi-Pec system how much does the complete setup cost..
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Unread 05-03-2010, 11:44 PM   #42
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Who includes hookers and beer with each order? That, to me, is the deal breaker.
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Unread 05-04-2010, 02:02 AM   #43
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Who includes hookers and beer with each order? That, to me, is the deal breaker.
I'm in for a group buy...
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Unread 05-04-2010, 03:20 AM   #44
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Oh I was on the other site and I heard Hookers and Beer?
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Unread 05-04-2010, 04:26 AM   #45
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Is the rant that started this thread about the ass-kissing stance of some people on the other board towards a certain vendor, which said vendor doesn't need, or the product(s) of said vendor?

Some interesting info on self-tuning EMS here. It would be great to see how the interface works, as I think the ease of use matters as much as the performance of an EMS - Vic, could you post more screenshots of the Vi-PEC interface?

How does the J&S know in which cylinder knock is appearing?

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