04-26-2010, 10:58 PM | #1 |
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Rant Rant Rant
I was on the OTHER Forum today and I was sickened by the incessant ass-kissing boot licking of certain vendors...
I was one of them at one time I did not know anything..Now I know spend the money upfront and get a STANDALONE.... -BB |
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04-27-2010, 12:24 AM | #2 |
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Hahaha, I was literally just thinking about that as I clicked over from there to here. A thread title caught my eye just as I was changing sites and I though to my self, look at that, another vendor circle jerk.
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04-27-2010, 12:25 AM | #3 |
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HAHA i was just thinking today that i would not buy any critical mods and save up for a Standalone G4 or something like that.
Any idea what cost i would be dealing with to get it (install myself)
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04-27-2010, 01:16 AM | #4 |
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I've got a stage 2 setup (turbo/maf/chipboard/smt6) from said retailer, but I got it for a killer deal (~$1k)
When I outgrow that setup I will most likely make the move to a standalone. For most, a standalone doesn't make sense nor would it be the best thing for them so there is a market for stuff like his. But, I definitely would not pay anything close to retail for it.
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04-27-2010, 01:24 AM | #5 |
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Oh come on... At least I managed to piss someone off over there today!
can't we all just get along... |
04-27-2010, 01:26 AM | #6 | |
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IIRC, roughly $3200 for the basic system, harness and a base map... |
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04-27-2010, 08:32 AM | #7 |
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I dont see why you guys are bashing that Vendor and reply with such comments . Get me a GOOD stand alone EMS with coil-packs and a similar turbo for under 4000$ including a perfect tune and everything working and i will buy that Dont forget that it has to have include bigger injectors as well. Get it with a stand alone ems your pushing 1000 bucks just to get it tuned and installed. I know after installing such a system on my subaru .
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04-27-2010, 04:10 PM | #8 |
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Tuning your engine yourself with a standalone is not that difficult. The majority of the work is in the setup of the software and configuration of the wiring harness. With the correct hardware and a regimented approach, it is very easy to extract the most out of your engine.
I've been running my Vi-PEC V44 standalone system for more than a year now and must say that it has transformed my 951 - not only in overall power output, but in its everyday driving, starting, throttle response etc. The overall functionality of a standalone system just blows away any of the piggyback type arrangements that revolve around the 20+ year old Motronic technology. With my J&S digital knock contoller operating in closed loop, it provides the ultimate in protection with individual cylinder retard up to 10 degrees. I run the J&S output thru the Vi-PEC and my logs and real time display tell me how many degrees the J&S has pulled when knock was encountered and eliminated. I also instruct the Vi-PEC to pull boost when anything more than 2 degrees of retard has been detected. The killer thing about the J&S is that it makes corrections without you even feeling it. If my timing curve is to aggressive in a given area, I can fine tune down to a tenth of a degree in the area(s) that the J&S was active. The process is VERY straight forward and very noticeable from the "butt dyno" perspective. I'm running a GT30R now on my 2.5L and with pump gas at 18.5 psi, I put down 358 whp and 355 lb/ft on a DynaPack tuning it with this method. This was done with a wasted spark arrangement firing the injectors in batch. I've since gone fully sequential with a LS2 coil-near plug arrangement and the difference is incredible. My engine now runs like a sewing machine! The engine runs silky smooth like modern cars of today. Here's a screen shot showing the J&S in action. The cursor is right at the point where boost (black line) was pulled and the purple, Volt 4 (on right) shows that it pulled 3 degrees to eliminate knock. Cool thing is that if I didn't instruct the Vi-PEC to pull boost, the J&S would make the correction all by itself and the engine would run a timing value putting it right at the safe side of the "edge" - extracting the most from the engine. So with feedback from the J&S, I have narrowed down the "best" timing curve for my engine based on the environment it operates in. With wideband and knock feedback it's relatively straight forward, a lot of fun and extremely gratifying tuning your own car!
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Vic WWW.PAUERTUNING.COM '89 951 Guards Red - 2.5L Vi-PEC V44, GT3076R '89 951 Stone Grey - 3.0L 16V Turbo Project, V88 '86 951 Sapphire Blue - 2.8L Vi-PEC V44, GT30R '89 944S2 Black - Stock |
04-27-2010, 05:01 PM | #9 |
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Vic,
where are you located?
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04-27-2010, 06:06 PM | #10 |
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@Pauerman
Thats a very nice setup you got there. Yeah my next project will be with a standalone get rid of the old crappy wire harness and motronic thats for sure but the vendors does have good kits that are relatively easy to install, a standalone is a more complicated task. Vi-PEC V44 never heard that been used in any 951s before looks like a interesting EMS from their web page.. |
04-27-2010, 08:09 PM | #11 |
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Adonay,
Other than installing some new wiring, I do not see the overall difference from one install to the next. And of course with the standalone set-up you get new tech, new wiring and better overall performance & reliability. If that takes an additional day to install, hell even a week, it is more than worth it IMO. Coupled with top notch vendors like Chris White @ 944 Enhancements (TEC) Dave McGrath @ CEP (LINK) and now Vic Pauer (right Vic? ) I would think you are guaranteed to get the ultimate in customer support/satisfaction. I am not sure which vendor you are referring to or is being referenced on TOS as there are several kits on the market, so this is no slight to any of them, but after owning a few of the kits out there I found that none so far had fully delivered on their promises. Some closer than others, sure, but no one kit really knocked my socks off. The funny thing about it, is that the best customer service I had ever received is from the supposed worst vendor of them all....Autothority. I called them many, many times upto to a year and a half after purchasing their kit and they were always VERY helpful and even sent me a free replacement MAF harness when I had a problem with mine a year after I bought it. I understand they don't help anyone who buys their kits used. But who does? As I said, this is not a put down to any vendor. they are doing their best with what they have to work with (Motronic) and all seem to do well at making a living of it. Just seems that there is better available now, for competitive prices. Just my .02 cents.
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04-27-2010, 09:51 PM | #12 |
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I'm in Mesa, AZ.
The great thing about the Vi-PEC kit is that it is truly plug & play. After replacing the factory wiring harness with the fully terminated replacement harness I make, the only other part of the intall is replacing the the cap & rotor with the 4 post, wasted spark coil pack. The ECU recognizes the factory speed & reference signals, so after verifying a few simple things after the car is running with the installed calibration file, it'll be ready for WOT runs very quickly. The biggest point I'd like to make in regards to the need for "specialized dyno tuning" is that it's not required! Just like everyone here knows what AFR you need throughout the powerband, ajusting for timing parameters takes a similar approach. Simply put, more advance under vacuum, retard approaching torque peak and reintroduction of advance after torque peak toward the upper range of the RPM. Having a baseline timing map as a point of reference, Vi-PEC standalone users can play with advancing timing in areas knowing that the J&S has a 10 degree fudge factor to adust for automatically. With small, incremental changes the user can see knock activity, the amount of timing that was pulled, the RPM range in which it occured AND for sequential users the J&S will tell you which cylinder(s) knock was happening in! As an additional safety precaution, I set the ECU up to pull boost if the box is adjusting for anything over 2 degrees, so there's no bigger & better signal when driving than to have the car run at 18 psi then drop down to 8 psi. The sequential mode really elevates accuracy and allows the logged info to be more precise. Example, if I have a knock situation that isn't being fixed with timing and fueling changes, I can monitor the LED activity lights on the J&S as to whether my problem is consistant with one cylinder. This could point to a faulty injector, spark plug, plug wire or even coil. On top of the useful info that can be used for diagnostics, the driving characteristics in full sequential is so SWEET!! Coupled with the TPS based boost control, the driving experience in my 951 has been transformed. I can accelerate at part throttle and not have the car snap into full boost, so it drives much more like an N/A car. When I want full boost, I just put my foot to the floor and let the turbo howl. For guys interested in keeping the stock look, the WS pack I use sits right where the distributor cap was, so passing visual inspections using the factory airbox is definitely possible. The standalone technology has become very powerful / robust and thankfully the Vi-PEC tuning interface is VERY user friendly and easy to understand. I've had no problems tuning my 1000cc injectors for crisp throttle response even in batch fire mode. I'm using the latest EV14 saturated injectors from Bosch and while some may say that P&H provide better off boost performance, the newer technology and design put into these babies make them super fast and accurate. I have all the injector I need for running higher boost and E85 gas now. In response to the comment about a standalone option not making sense for "most" 951 guys, I think the majority of 951 guys looking to make more power recognize the performance options available and the price point for the given parts. With that said, any comprehensive kit that covers all the bases has an expected price tag. From that perspective, a dollar for dollar comparison can be made and I think a lot of guys will be surprised at what can be had in the standalone world for a similar cost.
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Vic WWW.PAUERTUNING.COM '89 951 Guards Red - 2.5L Vi-PEC V44, GT3076R '89 951 Stone Grey - 3.0L 16V Turbo Project, V88 '86 951 Sapphire Blue - 2.8L Vi-PEC V44, GT30R '89 944S2 Black - Stock |
04-27-2010, 10:28 PM | #13 | |
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Quote:
Vipec V44 = Link G4 Storm with blue instead of red
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Brian Smokey - 1986 951 2.7 liter MID sleeve big bore with Vitesse Stage 2, Bilsteins/Weltmeisters/TBar Delete/ER Monoballs, LSD AOR transaxle, CEP Fuel Rail, CEP 321SS Exhaust, Link G4 Xtreme, and more! Breadbox - 1993 VW Passat Wagon, Red/Black like the 951... "The first 50% of the project takes 90% of the time... The rest of the project takes the other 90% of the time." "Remember, if you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem." |
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04-27-2010, 10:57 PM | #14 | |
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Vi-PEC ECUs will have new cases and features that will help the consumer identify the differences between the two brands. The truth of the matter is that both options are absolutely amazing. Depending on your interest and/or needs, either option will have you covered and then some.
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Vic WWW.PAUERTUNING.COM '89 951 Guards Red - 2.5L Vi-PEC V44, GT3076R '89 951 Stone Grey - 3.0L 16V Turbo Project, V88 '86 951 Sapphire Blue - 2.8L Vi-PEC V44, GT30R '89 944S2 Black - Stock |
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04-28-2010, 12:29 AM | #15 | |
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Brian Smokey - 1986 951 2.7 liter MID sleeve big bore with Vitesse Stage 2, Bilsteins/Weltmeisters/TBar Delete/ER Monoballs, LSD AOR transaxle, CEP Fuel Rail, CEP 321SS Exhaust, Link G4 Xtreme, and more! Breadbox - 1993 VW Passat Wagon, Red/Black like the 951... "The first 50% of the project takes 90% of the time... The rest of the project takes the other 90% of the time." "Remember, if you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem." |
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