Reutterwerk
Go Back   Reutterwerk > Porsche Air/Oil Cooled Forums > 993 Forum

Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
Unread 05-15-2009, 03:17 AM   #1
lulz
User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 339
Thanks: 0
Thanked 58 Times in 24 Posts
lulz will become famous soon enough
Default 2wd vs 4wd.............?

Hey all. How do you 993 guys feel about the handling on your cars? What I really mean is two wheel drive vs all wheel drive. Which is more fun. Which would be better to track. Do most all wheel drives push?

An article in a recent Excellence got me to thinking when they called the 911 TT AWD car a bankers car. I'v seen some great deals on some 993TT's of late but I'm not sure I'd like the handling.

What say you guys? Am I making much ado about nothing?

Lulz
lulz is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-15-2009, 08:45 AM   #2
murfysflaw
Super User
 
murfysflaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Little Rock, AR (that's Arkansas, not Arizona)
Posts: 3,220
Thanks: 1,355
Thanked 1,064 Times in 750 Posts
murfysflaw has much to be proud ofmurfysflaw has much to be proud ofmurfysflaw has much to be proud ofmurfysflaw has much to be proud ofmurfysflaw has much to be proud ofmurfysflaw has much to be proud ofmurfysflaw has much to be proud ofmurfysflaw has much to be proud of
Default

I don't track my C4 or anything, so I haven't come close to the "edge" yet. That said, since I also don't drive in bad weather, it's really a waste for me. I also don't have a C2 993 to compare against since the only other 911 I drove was an 84.
__________________
Patrick Murphy
11 JK - 2.5 Frankenlift, WURX front and rear bumpers/tire carrier, Warn winch

Gone, but not forgotten:
95 C4 Cab - Guards/Cashmere, M030/Bilstiens, HIDs, LPMM, MY02s
84 911 Targa - Black/Black
01 TJ - Anniversary Edition, 2" lift, 33" BFG ATKOs, Rhino-lined tub
murfysflaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-15-2009, 11:12 AM   #3
BSL
Enthusiast
Reutterwerk
Supporter
 
BSL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Chicago-land, IL
Posts: 188
Thanks: 21
Thanked 32 Times in 29 Posts
BSL is on a distinguished road
Default

I am partially with Patrick in that I don't track my car at this time (mine is a C2), but I do use it as a daily driver, rain or shine. For day-to-day driving, it handles like a champ. I only have had a brief drive in a C4 993 about a year ago, and while it felt a little bit heavier from a steering perspective, it wasn't as bad as the 997 C2 vs C4. For me personally, in a 993 I wouldn't worry about C2 vs C4 for a driver (not sure about track though).
__________________
Brian

1995 C2 Cab - lots of goodies from the previous owner

Previously:
2011 Boxster
2009 Cayenne
2007 C2 Cab
2006 Boxster
BSL is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-15-2009, 11:33 AM   #4
Duckman
User
 
Duckman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Waxhaw, NC (Charlotte suburb)
Posts: 113
Thanks: 2
Thanked 12 Times in 10 Posts
Duckman is on a distinguished road
Default

I've wondered about this question. My 993 is a C2 and it's been a very long time since I drove a 993 C4, so I don't really have any comparison. Also, I have never tracked either car, so I can't compare how they handle at the limit. I plan to track my 993 in the future but haven't gotten around to it in my 4 months of ownership.

An aside is that I drove a 964 C4 once and I've never forgotten the experience. I hated it. It seemed slow and clumsy. Before that I'd thought about getting one for all-season driving but the experience really turned me off. I don't remember the specifics of my later 993 C4 drive but it wasn't negative. They must have truly improved the AWD system in the 993.
__________________
Duckman


'95 993 coupe: Gurards Red with Cashmere; 6-speed; heated hard-back sport seats; three-spoke 996 steering wheel; Big Reds; Bilstein HD shocks; H&R springs; 18" Sport Classic II wheels; strut tower brace; computer chip; custom exhaust.
Duckman is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-15-2009, 12:02 PM   #5
Dick B.
Adult Supervisor
Reutterwerk
Supporter
 
Dick B.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Everybody's Hometown/ Prescott AZ
Posts: 15,808
Blog Entries: 1
Thanks: 1,236
Thanked 1,881 Times in 1,112 Posts
Dick B. has a reputation beyond reputeDick B. has a reputation beyond reputeDick B. has a reputation beyond reputeDick B. has a reputation beyond reputeDick B. has a reputation beyond reputeDick B. has a reputation beyond reputeDick B. has a reputation beyond reputeDick B. has a reputation beyond reputeDick B. has a reputation beyond reputeDick B. has a reputation beyond reputeDick B. has a reputation beyond repute
Garage
Default

Thought I'd weigh in here as I have had my C4S for 11 years now but can only compare it to my previous Porsche which was an 88 930. That was a scary car!

I've autocrossed my C4S for the past 9 years or so on a regular basis (6 to 8 times a year) and find it to be a super handling car. You can see in my sig the mods made to my car over the years. Other than all the power and torque added with the SC perhaps the biggest improvement which basically killed the "push" was the change to my suspension (H&R coilovers, euro TT sway bars, shock tower brace and about 1 1/2 degrees of negative camber plus the car lowered about 2"). Turn in is sharp, and predictable and even with 4WD I'm able to rotate the car at will on tight courses. Acceleration out of corners is fantastic (and I believe much better) with 4WD as it allows you to get on the throttle hard and sooner while helping pull you through the corner ... and it's much more predictable and forgiving than RWD.

Not many people track 4WD cars because they are heavier the C2's and the S versions are also wider adding more wind resistance.

I've never tracked my car but I'd think that the performance would be similar on more wide open venues. Also haven't driven the car in the winter (as it would be a snow plow) but find it handles great in the wet as well. BTW using Sumitomo HTR Z III tires which, in my opinion, outperform the 2X expensive Michelin SO-2's. Somewhere I recently saw a write up by John D on these tires and find that he's a fan of them as well.

As always YMMV.

__________________
2015 Cayman S (SOLD)
2018 Volvo V90 T6 Cross Country Wagon
2020 MINI Cooper S Clubman
2016 Polaris RZR 570EPS

"AMERICA! Designed by geniuses, Run by idiots.."
Dick B. is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-15-2009, 02:21 PM   #6
95C4VanIsle
User
 
95C4VanIsle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 111
Thanks: 14
Thanked 18 Times in 17 Posts
95C4VanIsle is on a distinguished road
Default

I've signed up for my first DE at the end of May at PR in Seattle. My only Porsche has been the C4. It will be interesting to see how it performs and compares to others in the novice class. I expect that there will be mostly C2's running. I have been told to expect understeer, especially as my car is bone stock. I'll, hopefully, check back in here after the DE and give a better perspective.
__________________
Bret
95C4 Black/Black
Great DIY site:

http://www.pcarworkshop.com/
95C4VanIsle is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-15-2009, 02:45 PM   #7
Dick B.
Adult Supervisor
Reutterwerk
Supporter
 
Dick B.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Everybody's Hometown/ Prescott AZ
Posts: 15,808
Blog Entries: 1
Thanks: 1,236
Thanked 1,881 Times in 1,112 Posts
Dick B. has a reputation beyond reputeDick B. has a reputation beyond reputeDick B. has a reputation beyond reputeDick B. has a reputation beyond reputeDick B. has a reputation beyond reputeDick B. has a reputation beyond reputeDick B. has a reputation beyond reputeDick B. has a reputation beyond reputeDick B. has a reputation beyond reputeDick B. has a reputation beyond reputeDick B. has a reputation beyond repute
Garage
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 95C4VanIsle View Post
I have been told to expect understeer, especially as my car is bone stock.
I will guarantee it.
__________________
2015 Cayman S (SOLD)
2018 Volvo V90 T6 Cross Country Wagon
2020 MINI Cooper S Clubman
2016 Polaris RZR 570EPS

"AMERICA! Designed by geniuses, Run by idiots.."
Dick B. is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-16-2009, 04:59 AM   #8
lulz
User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 339
Thanks: 0
Thanked 58 Times in 24 Posts
lulz will become famous soon enough
Default

Thanks. Lot's of food for thought.
I need to drive both types to get a more personal opinion.993's IMHO were the best looking 911's ever. They also seem to hold their value rather well.


Lulz
lulz is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-17-2009, 08:44 PM   #9
993innc
User
 
993innc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: In my head
Posts: 15
Thanks: 1
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
993innc is on a distinguished road
Default

I track my car (its about all the pavement time it sees any more), and I hated the front end push, followed by front wheel grab (like a fwd car). So I disconnected the front wheels. I haven't removed all the parts (total conversion requires minor body alterations), but converting to 2 wheel drive in addition to the LWF was a transforming activity. The car goes and steers like it should now and I love it. Wish it wasn't such a heavy car, but......
__________________
Chris

PCA National DE Instructor
1997 993"Clubsport" Carrera4S Black/Black
DACH 200 cell cats w/fangs /PSS9's/DAS rollbar/Recaro GT3 seats w6-pt. harness/3 spoke TT wheel with crest/aluminum gauge rings/Rennline race pedals/Euro taillights/LWFW/RS motor mounts/GT2 splitters

Purveyor of all things DACH
http://dachperformancesystems.mysite.com
exhaust art for your Porsche

"You can't be king of the world, if you're slave to the grind"
993innc is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-18-2009, 08:54 PM   #10
Canyon56
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Beers View Post

Other than all the power and torque added with the SC perhaps the biggest improvement which basically killed the "push" was the change to my suspension (H&R coilovers, euro TT sway bars, shock tower brace and about 1 1/2 degrees of negative camber plus the car lowered about 2"). Turn in is sharp, and predictable and even with 4WD I'm able to rotate the car at will on tight courses. Acceleration out of corners is fantastic (and I believe much better) with 4WD as it allows you to get on the throttle hard and sooner while helping pull you through the corner ... and it's much more predictable and forgiving than RWD.

Not many people track 4WD cars because they are heavier the C2's and the S versions are also wider adding more wind resistance.


As always YMMV.
+ 993 on this. I completely agree with what Dick is saying. With a well thought out suspension tune, you can dial out all the stuff that makes AWD a bit less desirable. And once that 'push' is gone, they are really fun to throttle out of the corners aggressively and without worrying so much about ending up in the trees. The weight and wind resistance (at high speeds) is the only real "drawback" IMHO.

And as Dick said: YMMV. But the first thing one needs to consider on these cars is suspension tuning; they have a lot of potential and a stock setup won't get you there.
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to For Your Post:
Dick B. (05-18-2009)
Unread 05-19-2009, 01:56 AM   #11
lulz
User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 339
Thanks: 0
Thanked 58 Times in 24 Posts
lulz will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canyon56 View Post
+ 993 on this. I completely agree with what Dick is saying. With a well thought out suspension tune, you can dial out all the stuff that makes AWD a bit less desirable. And once that 'push' is gone, they are really fun to throttle out of the corners aggressively and without worrying so much about ending up in the trees. The weight and wind resistance (at high speeds) is the only real "drawback" IMHO.

And as Dick said: YMMV. But the first thing one needs to consider on these cars is suspension tuning; they have a lot of potential and a stock setup won't get you there.
Ah! This post brings out (I think) the answer to my less than optimally worded first post and the reason I asked a 993TT question in the NA 993 forum.

C2 VS C4 comparison opened my eyes on AWD traits. I'm guessing a TT has the same basic AWD setup as C4. Hmmm...but I've always heard the TT handled superbly.(pretty neutral for a rear engined car) So I'm gonna surmise that as Canyon56 stated that it's all about the suspension setup in the 993TT that makes it work. Well, that and a generous helping of HP and torque. I have seen some awesome deals on some 993TT's of late but didn't know if I would like the handling. Hence my post. lulz
lulz is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-19-2009, 04:34 AM   #12
Canyon56
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lulz View Post
Ah! This post brings out (I think) the answer to my less than optimally worded first post and the reason I asked a 993TT question in the NA 993 forum.

C2 VS C4 comparison opened my eyes on AWD traits. I'm guessing a TT has the same basic AWD setup as C4. Hmmm...but I've always heard the TT handled superbly.(pretty neutral for a rear engined car) So I'm gonna surmise that as Canyon56 stated that it's all about the suspension setup in the 993TT that makes it work. Well, that and a generous helping of HP and torque. I have seen some awesome deals on some 993TT's of late but didn't know if I would like the handling. Hence my post. lulz
Hmm, not quite what I was saying. The 993TT (starting in '95) was the first AWD turbo-engined 911. The AWD in the 993TT was in part because Porsche didn't want people killing themselves. iirc, they had some product liability suits back with the 930TT which not only was difficult with RWD and all that power, but the unpredictable lag that came with the blown motor.

The C4S is the same car as the TT, sans the turbo (and deck spoiler.) What I was saying, and what Dick first pointed out, is that tuning the suspension from stock in any AWD 911 (e.g., coilovers; sways; etc.) can result in much more desirable handling, esp if one prefers less understeer/push.
  Reply With Quote
Unread 05-19-2009, 05:35 AM   #13
lulz
User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 339
Thanks: 0
Thanked 58 Times in 24 Posts
lulz will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canyon56 View Post
Hmm, not quite what I was saying. The 993TT (starting in '95) was the first AWD turbo-engined 911. The AWD in the 993TT was in part because Porsche didn't want people killing themselves. iirc, they had some product liability suits back with the 930TT which not only was difficult with RWD and all that power, but the unpredictable lag that came with the blown motor.

The C4S is the same car as the TT, sans the turbo (and deck spoiler.) What I was saying, and what Dick first pointed out, is that tuning the suspension from stock in any AWD 911 (e.g., coilovers; sways; etc.) can result in much more desirable handling, esp if one prefers less understeer/push.
Yep, Sorry I didn't mean to put words in your mouth just that I deduced my opinion from your and Mr. Beers posts concerning the C4's.(hope that made sense) And yes I remember the lawsuits concerning the original 930 (single turbo)... something about leaving the road backwards.
Thanks to all for the feedback. lulz
lulz is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-19-2009, 09:40 AM   #14
Dick B.
Adult Supervisor
Reutterwerk
Supporter
 
Dick B.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Everybody's Hometown/ Prescott AZ
Posts: 15,808
Blog Entries: 1
Thanks: 1,236
Thanked 1,881 Times in 1,112 Posts
Dick B. has a reputation beyond reputeDick B. has a reputation beyond reputeDick B. has a reputation beyond reputeDick B. has a reputation beyond reputeDick B. has a reputation beyond reputeDick B. has a reputation beyond reputeDick B. has a reputation beyond reputeDick B. has a reputation beyond reputeDick B. has a reputation beyond reputeDick B. has a reputation beyond reputeDick B. has a reputation beyond repute
Garage
Default

A stock C4S and TT use almost identical suspension setups. The TT has a little more beefy rear sway bars but to my knowledge that is it. Therefore the two of them as delivered will exhibit similar handling characteristics tho I suspect the stock TT might present with more understeer due to it's higher hp and torque levels. The C4's (not C4S's) have the same suspension as C2's I believe.

I can testify about the tail happiness of 930's .... went backwards more times than I care to remember.
__________________
2015 Cayman S (SOLD)
2018 Volvo V90 T6 Cross Country Wagon
2020 MINI Cooper S Clubman
2016 Polaris RZR 570EPS

"AMERICA! Designed by geniuses, Run by idiots.."
Dick B. is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-20-2009, 09:28 PM   #15
MarkD
Who me?
 
MarkD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 43
Thanks: 0
Thanked 7 Times in 6 Posts
MarkD is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Beers View Post
A stock C4S and TT use almost identical suspension setups. The TT has a little more beefy rear sway bars but to my knowledge that is it. Therefore the two of them as delivered will exhibit similar handling characteristics tho I suspect the stock TT might present with more understeer due to it's higher hp and torque levels.

Bingo...


The torque steer is why I converted my 993tt to 2WD. I liked the car a LOT before. I love it now.
__________________
97 993 turbo
96 993 cab
06 Cayenne S
07 '57 Speedster Replica but actually a '74 Beetle

http://www.fdmotorsports.net
MarkD is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:53 PM.

Kirsch designed by Andrew & Austin


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
DTO Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.
Copyright © 2008 - 2024, Reutterwerk.com